So, if I can keep living in the same place, for the same amount of rent for the next several years, and I cancel my cable TV, and cut back my phone’s minutes, and don’t ever get internet access at home, and continue to not go to the movies, and continue not to go out to eat very often, and my utilities don’t skyrocket, and keep my job with Realink, I can theoretically pay back my debt at about $650/month. If tech support continues to get a bonus, I’ll even have a little spending money in the meantime. At that rate, with interest calculated approximately, if I don’t add to my debt, I should have all of my debt paid off by March, 2004.
With raises, maybe a little bit faster. With unexpected expenses, maybe a little bit slower. Some people ask me why I choose to spend most of my time by myself at home. I really can’t afford to do much else.
This is intentional, to a degree. My debt grounds me. Forces me to stay in the same place, doing the same things, avoiding certain activities, for a long time. Gives me stability, for a time. If I invest the same amount of money every month from the time my debt is paid off until my 30th birthday, I will have over $35,000 in savings, and 7 years experience living on the cheap. Then I can just put my possessions into storage and fly over to Eurasia and walk around for a couple years, right?
Anyway, it would be nice to be in the same place for seven years. Who knows if such a thing is possible. There are many things that can stand in the way of this, not the least of which is an uncertain future for all Americans in the face of war, and all mankind in the face of …whatever may or may not happen between 1.1.1.0 and 1.1.1.1. There is also my lack of initiative to “get ahead”. I don’t want to climb any “corporate ladder”, and some managers see this as a reason to fire employees. There is also the tentative profitability of the company I work for, and their need for experienced technical support represntatives. There is also the competative market in which the home I am currently renting resides, with the very real possibility of very steep rent increases in the coming years. With my current outstanding debt, I am in no position to attempt to purchase a house to live in in the interim; where would a down payment come from?
There is also the possibility that without the internet, the movies, and cable TV, that I will go stir crazy and start doing one or more of those things again, slowing everything down. I seem to be enamored with books and creative outlets lately though, and believe that I can keep at least the creativity side of that up indefinitely. If I run out of contemporary books, I may finally reach the point where I can read “literature” and stay interested. That would be handy. To be well-read.
I find lately that I am word-rich. People say hi to me online, and after just a couple of introductory statements, I am expounding at great length upon whatever topic has come up. Pages and pages of text, every day, just chatting with a couple of people online. Then activity in the forums, and posts here as well, and I begin to feel very positively about my ability and drive to write, write, write. Every night when I go to bed (alright, nearly every night), I find myself wanting to grab my laptop and write something down, or gosit at my typewriter and smash out a story. Not a little while before bedtime, not when I get tired, but after I have changed for bed, brushed and flossed my teeth, turned out all the lights and off all the electronics and crawled into bed. At that very last moment before I start getting ready for the next day (that is: actually going to sleep), my mind decides that the current day was not productive enough, and would I please get up and create just one more thing?
This can be frustrating. Especially this week. This week, I’m trying to get myself in the habit of going to bed earlier and earlier and waking up earlier and earlier, in preperation for next week. For the first time since I started working here in January of 2000, I am able to work the schedule I requested. I will be working the early shift, from 6AM to 3PM for the first time in years. The company I worked at last had me on a shift that ended at 10PM, and this one has always had me on the closing shift. First because I was new, then because the other technicians had classes in the evenings and needed off before a particular time. One of the techs in school, who had the early shift, doesn’t need to get to class until 6 now, so he agreed to switch shifts with me, and management allowed it (because he has trouble coming in that early). I will probably have trouble feeling chipper getting up around 4AM for the next week or two, but after a little while, I know it will feel even better than this sleeping lat business I’m doing now. Getting up before the sun has always felt very familiar, very right to me.
Of course, that means late nights are not an option anymore. That means I can’t even stay up late this weekend, because that would just make next week even worse. One of the really comforting things about not having a social life is that going to bed early is never a conflict of interest. Then again, if I can get in the habit of falling asleep at a reasonable time, I can start waking up extra early and get stuff done in the mornings before work. That early in the morning, it is late at night, and I have successfully been able to complete intensely creative tasks that way in the past. It is just a matter of doing it. I think it is a matter of waking before the dawn that gets me right out of bed. That transitional time between night and day, when I am just waking up, always seems like a good time to snooze a little longer. Waking up before the sun appears or around mid-morning seems more immediate.
I also need some new shoes. The ones I got for my birthday last year are falling apart, despite being Florsheim.
Back to the topic of being massively in debt: I do not feel that it would be appropriate or prudent to get married or even pursue a serious relationship with someone that could lead to marriage if one is in debt to any serious degree. (Note: I consider a serious degree of debt to be more debt than that which one could pay off in its entirety before the close of one billing cycle for that debt. I also believe that it is neither appropriate nor prudent to pursue a romantic relationship of any kind, from casual dating to “going steady” to everything else (including casual sex), if it is not with the intention of leading to marriage.) I remember, around this time last year, when I was trying to decide about how my life would progress, having trouble deciding whether or not to make my purchases major or whether to keep them small.
It was when the last person that I know of now that I would seriously consider marrying or pursuing marriage with turned me down with such certainty in her heart that I finally made up my mind about going into debt. It may have been a rash, reactionary decision, intended to force myself to be unable to pursue this person anymore, to effectively make myself even less attractive to them as a partner, and less willing to drag them down with me, but I stand by it. I did not spend the money unwisely. I bought a very high quality washer and dryer that I expect to do my laundry until a technology comes along that makes washing clothes obsolete. I bought a large hardwood bedframe that is sold and sturdy enough and high enough quality that I expect it to last at least as long as the high-quality, customizable-firmness matress/foundation that I bought, which is guaranteed to last at least twenty years. I bought a new bicycle that has needed far less repairs and replacement parts than any bicycle I have previously owned, and which gets me places faster. I bought a couch and two chair.5’s that are very comfortable recliners, as well as a coffee table and end table to go with them. I bought a dining room table and matching chairs. All reasonable purchases for things that I would otherwise not have, or would have bought lower quality alternatives for. What I did do that some would consider unwise is to make all these purchases at once, on credit.
Anyway, if and when I do settle down and get married, it will be after I settle my debts, and most of the household purchases will already have been made. These are purchases that I have made with the idea that they will satisfy not just myself, but a future partner. I’ve even found a refrigerator I’d like to get, when the need arises; the Maytag Wide-by-Side with Climate Zone. Take a look at it, if you haven’t. It seems to be very well-made, and I’m sure my future wife will be lgad to have something like it.
You seem to be making a lot of decisions for your future wife. I know that my and most other husbands tend to leave decorating and appliance decisions to thier wives. The woman that you choose to marry might not agree with all of your decorating choices that you have made (at 22) and expect to keep for nearly 20 years. 20 years is an awful long time to live with someone else’s decorating decisions. Usually when 2 people combine homes they want to make new purchases to reflect mutual taste and to feel that the home is “theirs” not one or the other person’s home.
Of course, we are speaking more hypothetical becuase a woman is not actually involved at this point and thoughts that you have today could very well change sometime in the next few months or years. I’m just pointing out what might be a flaw in your train of thought here.
You seem to be making a lot of decisions for your future wife. I know that my and most other husbands tend to leave decorating and appliance decisions to thier wives. The woman that you choose to marry might not agree with all of your decorating choices that you have made (at 22) and expect to keep for nearly 20 years. 20 years is an awful long time to live with someone else’s decorating decisions. Usually when 2 people combine homes they want to make new purchases to reflect mutual taste and to feel that the home is “theirs” not one or the other person’s home.
Of course, we are speaking more hypothetical becuase a woman is not actually involved at this point and thoughts that you have today could very well change sometime in the next few months or years. I’m just pointing out what might be a flaw in your train of thought here.
Yea, I wanted to say that too, but April was for more eloquent in the phrasing. YEA!
Yea, I wanted to say that too, but April was for more eloquent in the phrasing. YEA!
I spent like, 45 minutes making a response to that, but now I guess you’ll never know. As far as I can tell, my System Administrator thought it would be funny to reboot the proxy server, and my post was lost in the aether.
Maybe I’ll try again some other time.
I spent like, 45 minutes making a response to that, but now I guess you’ll never know. As far as I can tell, my System Administrator thought it would be funny to reboot the proxy server, and my post was lost in the aether.
Maybe I’ll try again some other time.
Well, let me just say this, because it seems not to have been clear to you from what I wrote: That most of my household purchases will already have been made before I get a wife is not a condition of my wanting to make decisions for a wife, but a condition of living on my own. I need to have a functional household by myself, whether or not I may have a wife at some point down the line. I am aware as I make my own household functional that I may share it at some point, which is what I mean when I say “These are purchases that I have made with the idea that they will satisfy not just myself, but a future partner”; not that I am trying to make decisions for my future partner, but rather that I am not blind to the fact that I may someday have a partner.
Are you saying you wouldn’t like to have a Maytag Wide-by-Side with Climate Zone technology, or a Maytag Neptune W/D, or an adjustable-firmness matress in YOUR home? I doubt it. I think you’re saying that you would have liked to have been a part of the decision to put them in your home. I would have liked to have my partner play a role in those decisions, too, but she just wasn’t around when I needed a new bed and a W/D, and may not be around when I need a refridgerator.
Well, let me just say this, because it seems not to have been clear to you from what I wrote: That most of my household purchases will already have been made before I get a wife is not a condition of my wanting to make decisions for a wife, but a condition of living on my own. I need to have a functional household by myself, whether or not I may have a wife at some point down the line. I am aware as I make my own household functional that I may share it at some point, which is what I mean when I say “These are purchases that I have made with the idea that they will satisfy not just myself, but a future partner”; not that I am trying to make decisions for my future partner, but rather that I am not blind to the fact that I may someday have a partner.
Are you saying you wouldn’t like to have a Maytag Wide-by-Side with Climate Zone technology, or a Maytag Neptune W/D, or an adjustable-firmness matress in YOUR home? I doubt it. I think you’re saying that you would have liked to have been a part of the decision to put them in your home. I would have liked to have my partner play a role in those decisions, too, but she just wasn’t around when I needed a new bed and a W/D, and may not be around when I need a refridgerator.
All that I am saying is that before you decide that you will keep these purchases for the rest of your life, you might want to realize that your future partner may not like your bed, or your chairs, or whatever other large pieces of furniture that you are deciding about now. I am sure that the appliances will be fine as long as they are functional, but you never know, she may think that another model or color or whatever would be better.
I think that my major problem was in the phrasing which you still do not seem to understand. ” satisfy not just myself, but a future partner,” seems to say that you are trying to satisfy a person that you do not know what they may want, but they need to be satisfied with it anyway. It is important for you to have things that you enjoy and these decisions for you need to be made now.
I just wanted to point out that these are For You and that your future partner may want things that are For The Two of You. I have heard many men and women say that after they move in with a mate they feel that they are surrounded by the other person’s things and that it doesn’t feel like thier home, but the other person’s. That is when new purchases must be made. Of course a big yard sale generally returns a good portion of the money invested and with the expensive things you have bought I am sure that you will be able to get a fair amount out of what does not suit the new life that you will be living with this other person.
I guess my major point is that you might need to actually acknowledge these possiblities before you encounter them so that you do not have to fight or feel upset when and if this situation arises. Maybe making room for another person in your life might help in truly finding this other person. You often sound as if you don’t really have the space in your life for a partner and this could of course inhibit a serious relationship from growing.
Just food for thought, not trying to press my opinion on you, just encourage you to think this through from another perspective.
All that I am saying is that before you decide that you will keep these purchases for the rest of your life, you might want to realize that your future partner may not like your bed, or your chairs, or whatever other large pieces of furniture that you are deciding about now. I am sure that the appliances will be fine as long as they are functional, but you never know, she may think that another model or color or whatever would be better.
I think that my major problem was in the phrasing which you still do not seem to understand. ” satisfy not just myself, but a future partner,” seems to say that you are trying to satisfy a person that you do not know what they may want, but they need to be satisfied with it anyway. It is important for you to have things that you enjoy and these decisions for you need to be made now.
I just wanted to point out that these are For You and that your future partner may want things that are For The Two of You. I have heard many men and women say that after they move in with a mate they feel that they are surrounded by the other person’s things and that it doesn’t feel like thier home, but the other person’s. That is when new purchases must be made. Of course a big yard sale generally returns a good portion of the money invested and with the expensive things you have bought I am sure that you will be able to get a fair amount out of what does not suit the new life that you will be living with this other person.
I guess my major point is that you might need to actually acknowledge these possiblities before you encounter them so that you do not have to fight or feel upset when and if this situation arises. Maybe making room for another person in your life might help in truly finding this other person. You often sound as if you don’t really have the space in your life for a partner and this could of course inhibit a serious relationship from growing.
Just food for thought, not trying to press my opinion on you, just encourage you to think this through from another perspective.
I would love his furnature… monoliths are spiffy.
I would love his furnature… monoliths are spiffy.
yeah, yeah, yeah… if my post had not been lost; that was all covered. I have thought about it from that perspective. I have thought about it from others as well. I don’t feel like you’re pressing your opinion on me, I feel like you’re telling me I’m too dumb to think on my own, or to understand what you’ve already said, had I not thought of it myself in the past. These are just feelings though, so don’t take it as a personal affront that I have feelings.
I think another part of what I am saying that isn’t clear to you, April, is that a part of what will make a partner attractive to me is their taste in furniture & decoration. Or unattractive. I have had relationships end over matters less trivial than the style of furniture one party or the other prefers. I have faith that any partner I am serious about, that is serious about having a relationship with me, will have a profound impact on my life that I cannot yet conceive. I also believe that they will accapt and love me for who I am. A far-fetched, stary-eyed idea I know, but I like it.
Part of who I am is this: I have been poor. I do not plan on ever achieving financial greatness. I am comfortable living in a lower to middle class economic position, if necessary. Money is not what is important to me in life. I don’t have a lot of it, and what I have, I use all of to buy nice things. I’m not saving, amassing a future fortune. I have given up some small pleasures & leveraged my future earnings to have the things I do now, which is not a smart move, financially.
Anyone who would seriously consider being a part of my life, even if they somehow brought financial prosperity with them, would have to be able to deal with this part of me. I like nice things, even when it means I can only have a few of them. Having more nice things does not motivate me to earn more money; if I had never got raises and bonuses, I would still be sleeping on the same old bed my dad slept on when he was young and going to the laundromat and would still be using the same old computer I built from the parts Mom and Dad upgraded from. I would be just as okay with that as I am now. Since I had money available though, instead of using duct tape to hold the old bed together or struggling with a slow computer or sitting on a worn out futon pad, I bought some nice things to replace them. I’ve already spent all the extra money for the next couple of years, and if it dries up after that I just won’t get new nice things anymore. It is an attitude that pervades me and upsets people around me; that when you buy things, you buy them to own them. Not to replace them or sell them and upgrade them to the newest model. To own them. For some reason this doesn’t seem to apply to hand-me-downs; I have few qualms getting rid of a bed more than twice my age or buying a computer of my own to replace the one I scrounged from around my parents’ house, but that old futon is still hanging around, and I have all the old HD’s I’ve purchased that haven’t totally failed. At least I am capable of throwing things out when they fail completely, or they no longer have value to me.
What was I saying? Hmmm… Something like … Part of the way I look at the world is in ownership. Not in an “own as much as possible” sort of way, but in an “own what you own” sort of way. I try not to look at anything I own as replaceable (though when the time comes to replace it, I can do so without emotional trauma; they’re just THINGS). Not in an aversion way; in an “it doesn’t occur to me that things will ever be replaced” way. It helps me be satisfied with what I have instead of wanting something else. I like new things, but I’d like for them to become old things, and to know that all the wear and tear on them is a mark my life has left on my surroundings. So, I’m aware that not everything I own will last forever, and I’m okay with replacing them when the time comes, but I’m not looking forward to it; I’m not thinking of it at all. This is partof my worldview, and I know it is not shared by many, and I know that it offends at least a few, and there are some who just can’t comprehend taking such a position, but it just seems natural to me. It is why I prefer nice things; I expect them to enter my life and not leave and I don’t want to be surrounded by junk.
Someone who cannot comprehend this, who cannot handle this, who cannot live with this mindset, cannot be my partner. Even if they had all the money to buy new things whenever, on a whim, to replace things before they needed it, or because of cosmetic imperfections, such a lifestyle I am not entirely comfortable with. Sometimes I want the biggest and the best and the newest, but in addition to what I already have, not instead of it. I’m like a weird cross between a consumerist and a hippie and who-knows-what-else. I want to conserve what I already have, but I also don’t mind cutting down forests, testing on animals, and sweat-shops full of children being used to bring me products that I don’t already have. I’m open to new things, but I’m not fond of getting rid of old things that still do what they’re supposed to.
As far as having room in my life for a partner, I agree that there is not room in my life for a partner at this time. I thought I’d covered that a couple of times already. I’m not looking for a partner right now. I don’t consider myself financially prepared to take on a serious relationship within the next few years. Although I consider myself emotionally capable of having a serious relationship, I believe that there are still more ways that I can grow emotionally with or without a partner, and the more time I spend trying to make myself a better person, the better.
I’m not looking, and I haven’t been for a while. I haven’t attempted to have more than a friendship or meaningless sexual relationship with anyone I’ve met since I last fell in love, back in ’97. I’ve very successfully been working on getting rid of the meaningless sexual relationships and the desire for them from my life in the last year or so. I have pursued trying to deepen relationships I already had with people prior to ’97, but nothing serious came out of that, did it? I don’t know if you remember, but from ’78 to mid-’96 I always believed and said loudly that I would never marry. In ’96 and ’97, I tried to get married to one person, then another, and even though the time or the people weren’t right in those situations, the idea that I want to be married entered my life. Since ’97, I have struggled between my belief that I will never marry and my desire to be married. (Even just a year and a day have passed since I last asked someone to marry me. The last person I fell in love with. Even though I didn’t believe I would marry her, I still wanted to, want to, and I couldn’t not let her know. I couldn’t not ask her.)
I believe in a lot of things I cannot see. I believe in a lot of things that have not happened yet. I have tremendous faith in some of them. Is it safe or reasonable for me to make room in my life for something I have believed all my life would never happen? I’m ready for the Rapture, if it comes today. I’m ready for the Trials, if they come first. I believe I will never marry. Still, a part of me keeps struggling to make myself ready; it come come at any time, at any hour, without warning. So, when I say something that implies that I am looking forward to getting married, or I am thinking of a future partner, or anything along those lines, don’t mistake that for meaning that I actually believe that such a thing will occur; understand it to be the vestiges of a deep desire that I do not expect to ever be fulfilled.
It makes me feel better sometimes to pretend that I might get married someday.
yeah, yeah, yeah… if my post had not been lost; that was all covered. I have thought about it from that perspective. I have thought about it from others as well. I don’t feel like you’re pressing your opinion on me, I feel like you’re telling me I’m too dumb to think on my own, or to understand what you’ve already said, had I not thought of it myself in the past. These are just feelings though, so don’t take it as a personal affront that I have feelings.
I think another part of what I am saying that isn’t clear to you, April, is that a part of what will make a partner attractive to me is their taste in furniture & decoration. Or unattractive. I have had relationships end over matters less trivial than the style of furniture one party or the other prefers. I have faith that any partner I am serious about, that is serious about having a relationship with me, will have a profound impact on my life that I cannot yet conceive. I also believe that they will accapt and love me for who I am. A far-fetched, stary-eyed idea I know, but I like it.
Part of who I am is this: I have been poor. I do not plan on ever achieving financial greatness. I am comfortable living in a lower to middle class economic position, if necessary. Money is not what is important to me in life. I don’t have a lot of it, and what I have, I use all of to buy nice things. I’m not saving, amassing a future fortune. I have given up some small pleasures & leveraged my future earnings to have the things I do now, which is not a smart move, financially.
Anyone who would seriously consider being a part of my life, even if they somehow brought financial prosperity with them, would have to be able to deal with this part of me. I like nice things, even when it means I can only have a few of them. Having more nice things does not motivate me to earn more money; if I had never got raises and bonuses, I would still be sleeping on the same old bed my dad slept on when he was young and going to the laundromat and would still be using the same old computer I built from the parts Mom and Dad upgraded from. I would be just as okay with that as I am now. Since I had money available though, instead of using duct tape to hold the old bed together or struggling with a slow computer or sitting on a worn out futon pad, I bought some nice things to replace them. I’ve already spent all the extra money for the next couple of years, and if it dries up after that I just won’t get new nice things anymore. It is an attitude that pervades me and upsets people around me; that when you buy things, you buy them to own them. Not to replace them or sell them and upgrade them to the newest model. To own them. For some reason this doesn’t seem to apply to hand-me-downs; I have few qualms getting rid of a bed more than twice my age or buying a computer of my own to replace the one I scrounged from around my parents’ house, but that old futon is still hanging around, and I have all the old HD’s I’ve purchased that haven’t totally failed. At least I am capable of throwing things out when they fail completely, or they no longer have value to me.
What was I saying? Hmmm… Something like … Part of the way I look at the world is in ownership. Not in an “own as much as possible” sort of way, but in an “own what you own” sort of way. I try not to look at anything I own as replaceable (though when the time comes to replace it, I can do so without emotional trauma; they’re just THINGS). Not in an aversion way; in an “it doesn’t occur to me that things will ever be replaced” way. It helps me be satisfied with what I have instead of wanting something else. I like new things, but I’d like for them to become old things, and to know that all the wear and tear on them is a mark my life has left on my surroundings. So, I’m aware that not everything I own will last forever, and I’m okay with replacing them when the time comes, but I’m not looking forward to it; I’m not thinking of it at all. This is partof my worldview, and I know it is not shared by many, and I know that it offends at least a few, and there are some who just can’t comprehend taking such a position, but it just seems natural to me. It is why I prefer nice things; I expect them to enter my life and not leave and I don’t want to be surrounded by junk.
Someone who cannot comprehend this, who cannot handle this, who cannot live with this mindset, cannot be my partner. Even if they had all the money to buy new things whenever, on a whim, to replace things before they needed it, or because of cosmetic imperfections, such a lifestyle I am not entirely comfortable with. Sometimes I want the biggest and the best and the newest, but in addition to what I already have, not instead of it. I’m like a weird cross between a consumerist and a hippie and who-knows-what-else. I want to conserve what I already have, but I also don’t mind cutting down forests, testing on animals, and sweat-shops full of children being used to bring me products that I don’t already have. I’m open to new things, but I’m not fond of getting rid of old things that still do what they’re supposed to.
As far as having room in my life for a partner, I agree that there is not room in my life for a partner at this time. I thought I’d covered that a couple of times already. I’m not looking for a partner right now. I don’t consider myself financially prepared to take on a serious relationship within the next few years. Although I consider myself emotionally capable of having a serious relationship, I believe that there are still more ways that I can grow emotionally with or without a partner, and the more time I spend trying to make myself a better person, the better.
I’m not looking, and I haven’t been for a while. I haven’t attempted to have more than a friendship or meaningless sexual relationship with anyone I’ve met since I last fell in love, back in ’97. I’ve very successfully been working on getting rid of the meaningless sexual relationships and the desire for them from my life in the last year or so. I have pursued trying to deepen relationships I already had with people prior to ’97, but nothing serious came out of that, did it? I don’t know if you remember, but from ’78 to mid-’96 I always believed and said loudly that I would never marry. In ’96 and ’97, I tried to get married to one person, then another, and even though the time or the people weren’t right in those situations, the idea that I want to be married entered my life. Since ’97, I have struggled between my belief that I will never marry and my desire to be married. (Even just a year and a day have passed since I last asked someone to marry me. The last person I fell in love with. Even though I didn’t believe I would marry her, I still wanted to, want to, and I couldn’t not let her know. I couldn’t not ask her.)
I believe in a lot of things I cannot see. I believe in a lot of things that have not happened yet. I have tremendous faith in some of them. Is it safe or reasonable for me to make room in my life for something I have believed all my life would never happen? I’m ready for the Rapture, if it comes today. I’m ready for the Trials, if they come first. I believe I will never marry. Still, a part of me keeps struggling to make myself ready; it come come at any time, at any hour, without warning. So, when I say something that implies that I am looking forward to getting married, or I am thinking of a future partner, or anything along those lines, don’t mistake that for meaning that I actually believe that such a thing will occur; understand it to be the vestiges of a deep desire that I do not expect to ever be fulfilled.
It makes me feel better sometimes to pretend that I might get married someday.
Now, that doesn’t cover the same topics as yesterday’s post, but I was working on it off and on for three and a half hours or so. Glad it went through.
Now, that doesn’t cover the same topics as yesterday’s post, but I was working on it off and on for three and a half hours or so. Glad it went through.
I am sorry that you felt like I was telling you that are too dumb to have already condsidered these things. I forgot that you are so omniscient and already know everything. Why do I bother to post when I have no new ideas to offer? I guess I am the dumb one…
I am sorry that you felt like I was telling you that are too dumb to have already condsidered these things. I forgot that you are so omniscient and already know everything. Why do I bother to post when I have no new ideas to offer? I guess I am the dumb one…
Again, “don’t take it as a personal affront that I have feelings.” You don’t need to apologize for MY feelings. I don’t claim to know everything. Did you even read the rest of what I had to say, or did you stop after the first four sentences?
I’m not intentionally trying to upset you, I was trying to let you know that you upset me, and how. I didn’t call you dumb, and I didn’t claim to know everything. I said that what you said made ME feel like you thought I was dumb. Yet before I did that, and before I expanded on why I felt the way I do about what I originally said, I tried responding to your post. I said that I had considered your point, and I had considered others, and that my initial response to what you said the first time (and repeated in more detail the second time (which I do a lot myself)) was lost.
I tried to respond to what you had to say first, then I tried to express how it made me feel, then I tried to explain my background of thought. I seem to be very good at upsetting people without trying by expressing the way that I feel, or what I am thinking. I refuse to stop thinking and feeling, and since the point of this site is for me to share my thoughts and feelings, I refuse to stop putting them here. Expect for me to post my emotional reactions here. I expect you to do the same, if you do post. I do it because it is the point of this site. (My impression is that) you do it because you connect your emotions to everything you see and hear.
What I don’t expect is for communications to break down into insults and self-deprecation.
Again, “don’t take it as a personal affront that I have feelings.” You don’t need to apologize for MY feelings. I don’t claim to know everything. Did you even read the rest of what I had to say, or did you stop after the first four sentences?
I’m not intentionally trying to upset you, I was trying to let you know that you upset me, and how. I didn’t call you dumb, and I didn’t claim to know everything. I said that what you said made ME feel like you thought I was dumb. Yet before I did that, and before I expanded on why I felt the way I do about what I originally said, I tried responding to your post. I said that I had considered your point, and I had considered others, and that my initial response to what you said the first time (and repeated in more detail the second time (which I do a lot myself)) was lost.
I tried to respond to what you had to say first, then I tried to express how it made me feel, then I tried to explain my background of thought. I seem to be very good at upsetting people without trying by expressing the way that I feel, or what I am thinking. I refuse to stop thinking and feeling, and since the point of this site is for me to share my thoughts and feelings, I refuse to stop putting them here. Expect for me to post my emotional reactions here. I expect you to do the same, if you do post. I do it because it is the point of this site. (My impression is that) you do it because you connect your emotions to everything you see and hear.
What I don’t expect is for communications to break down into insults and self-deprecation.
I attempted to mention something about this yesterday, in fact I had already typed it out to Teel in chat, but then I forgot. Anyway…
This is how I take forums. Not just Teel’s forums, any forums. A topic is laid out for the taking. I read the topic. I read people’s responses. I give my response to the topic. Maybe I discuss what someone else said, and offer an argument for or against it to incite further discussion. Discussion commences, or does not.
In the case of FYTH, things are a bit different, as not only do I know the person whose site this is, but the site is ABOUT him and his thoughts and feelings and events in his life. He posts them for the sake of posting them, which I can relate to because I have found it not only a good way to relieve some of the pressure of what life offers me, but I can then look at it from a different angle, often about as objectively as one can look at oneself. In this case, I certainly can’t argue with facts because Teel makes the facts here, this is all about him. I may have similar experiences to share, or a thought of encouragement, or another side to consider on something, or just something random and meaningless to say yet very loosely tying to the topic (often this last one is my preference).
They key though, I think, is often in the way a thing is worded. We are all culprits of this. It is simply hard to hear the tone of voice or see body gestures when one deals with straight text. So, something that could just be a casual observation can turn into an attack in the reader’s mind if the wording used is not chosen properly. I see that a lot in Teel’s forums, but I see it just as often in other forums I visit. Does this mean stop posting? Of course not. But (and this is not aimed at anyone in particular but rather as an idea posed to all who read this), it IS, I think, the responsability of the writer far more than the reader to make sure the reader understands what the writer has to say. So, the trick to discussing things in forums, I have found, is to just assume that unless it is BLATANTLY obviously not, discussion in a forum should be read with a level tone and taken simply as data rather than personal attacks. Even this is only exascerbated because of the nature of FYTH. In the Modern Evil Forum, it’s pretty much just “here’s a topic” and then Teel posts his ideas on it. I so often see people respond to his thoughts on it directly without glancing twice at the topic, when the topic is really what the whole conversation was supposed to be about in the first place. I see this in every forum I go to. Being able to keep a level head and calmly discussing the topic at hand, and calmly looking at and discussing certain points of other’s thoughts on the topic for primarily the buildup of your own response to the topic, is how more sides of a topic are explored and envisioned, and how we all can learn from it. Attacks back and forth of who meant what by which and taking things personally leads to just bickering no one else is really interested in (and since we aren’t either of the arguers, can’t relate to or respond to) and serves to feed a fire that started over a misunderstanding in the first place.
Let me further say “Can’t we all just get along?”
– Iain
PS I have worked long and hard on this response, and I think I deserve a link for my troubles.
http://www.darwinscomplex.com
damnit
I attempted to mention something about this yesterday, in fact I had already typed it out to Teel in chat, but then I forgot. Anyway…
This is how I take forums. Not just Teel’s forums, any forums. A topic is laid out for the taking. I read the topic. I read people’s responses. I give my response to the topic. Maybe I discuss what someone else said, and offer an argument for or against it to incite further discussion. Discussion commences, or does not.
In the case of FYTH, things are a bit different, as not only do I know the person whose site this is, but the site is ABOUT him and his thoughts and feelings and events in his life. He posts them for the sake of posting them, which I can relate to because I have found it not only a good way to relieve some of the pressure of what life offers me, but I can then look at it from a different angle, often about as objectively as one can look at oneself. In this case, I certainly can’t argue with facts because Teel makes the facts here, this is all about him. I may have similar experiences to share, or a thought of encouragement, or another side to consider on something, or just something random and meaningless to say yet very loosely tying to the topic (often this last one is my preference).
They key though, I think, is often in the way a thing is worded. We are all culprits of this. It is simply hard to hear the tone of voice or see body gestures when one deals with straight text. So, something that could just be a casual observation can turn into an attack in the reader’s mind if the wording used is not chosen properly. I see that a lot in Teel’s forums, but I see it just as often in other forums I visit. Does this mean stop posting? Of course not. But (and this is not aimed at anyone in particular but rather as an idea posed to all who read this), it IS, I think, the responsability of the writer far more than the reader to make sure the reader understands what the writer has to say. So, the trick to discussing things in forums, I have found, is to just assume that unless it is BLATANTLY obviously not, discussion in a forum should be read with a level tone and taken simply as data rather than personal attacks. Even this is only exascerbated because of the nature of FYTH. In the Modern Evil Forum, it’s pretty much just “here’s a topic” and then Teel posts his ideas on it. I so often see people respond to his thoughts on it directly without glancing twice at the topic, when the topic is really what the whole conversation was supposed to be about in the first place. I see this in every forum I go to. Being able to keep a level head and calmly discussing the topic at hand, and calmly looking at and discussing certain points of other’s thoughts on the topic for primarily the buildup of your own response to the topic, is how more sides of a topic are explored and envisioned, and how we all can learn from it. Attacks back and forth of who meant what by which and taking things personally leads to just bickering no one else is really interested in (and since we aren’t either of the arguers, can’t relate to or respond to) and serves to feed a fire that started over a misunderstanding in the first place.
Let me further say “Can’t we all just get along?”
– Iain
PS I have worked long and hard on this response, and I think I deserve a link for my troubles.
http://www.darwinscomplex.com
damnit
Danit, the more I read this, the more I think I’m not adequately explaining my point. Teel, when you get in on Thursday could you pull up your records and post what I said to you yesterday about this? I’d appreciate it.
Danit, the more I read this, the more I think I’m not adequately explaining my point. Teel, when you get in on Thursday could you pull up your records and post what I said to you yesterday about this? I’d appreciate it.
His furnature is just so spiffy… on a side note, he reminds me of a passage from “The Cryponomicon”:
Its about sexual kinks, and one of the main characters wife’s main sexual kinks is “Grandma Furnature” now nevermind the sex part, the part that reminds me of teel is this.. In the book this character starts out with nothing, but is a tech geek during the Era of Geek and makes a small fortune, and buys nice things. I see this alot, since most of my friends came from poorer roots, we like nice things, and tend to buy nice things… The only things that are bought to be disposable are our electronics. For teel, he buys high end appliances and furniture, I buy cooking equipment. I have 1 knife that is 75 dollars, but its the last carving knife I will ever have to buy.. its the same principle. It is also said in fight club… “No matter what else, that couch thing is taken care of”
His furnature is just so spiffy… on a side note, he reminds me of a passage from “The Cryponomicon”:
Its about sexual kinks, and one of the main characters wife’s main sexual kinks is “Grandma Furnature” now nevermind the sex part, the part that reminds me of teel is this.. In the book this character starts out with nothing, but is a tech geek during the Era of Geek and makes a small fortune, and buys nice things. I see this alot, since most of my friends came from poorer roots, we like nice things, and tend to buy nice things… The only things that are bought to be disposable are our electronics. For teel, he buys high end appliances and furniture, I buy cooking equipment. I have 1 knife that is 75 dollars, but its the last carving knife I will ever have to buy.. its the same principle. It is also said in fight club… “No matter what else, that couch thing is taken care of”
Believe it or not, I do completely read each post before responding. There really wasn’t anything left to say after your last post except for what I said. You clarified your thoughts and feelings on the subject at hand. My last post was more of an aside relating to how your statement about your feelings affected me. You had asked that I tell you when you are being rude, so I did.
“I guess I am the dumb one…” I never said that you called me dumb.
Regarding Ian’s post… I agree that it is hard to really understand what a person intends because of the lack of inflection and tone in a person’s voice. I was not all that hurt by his statement, but wanted to point out that he invites people to comment on his thoughts but doesn’t always want to hear what they have to say. “I feel like you’re telling me I’m too dumb to think on my own” I think that is silly. Unless you are omniscient I cannot assume that any thought I have you have already had, or unless I am not as smart as you are, and my thoughts are 3 steps behind yours. If this is not the case, then it is safe for me to assume that I may have an original thought and I should offer it to you in case you had not already considered it. Sometimes a person doesn’t realize what they think until it is voiced in another way, as you have actually pointed out to me before.
This whole thing is silly. I know that I am not truly offended, (put off at first, but not completely offended) and I really hope that Teel not is either.
And yes Teel, I connect my emotions to everything I see and hear. You have always known that I am a very emotional, sensitive person. You used to be also, maybe sometimes you still are…
Believe it or not, I do completely read each post before responding. There really wasn’t anything left to say after your last post except for what I said. You clarified your thoughts and feelings on the subject at hand. My last post was more of an aside relating to how your statement about your feelings affected me. You had asked that I tell you when you are being rude, so I did.
“I guess I am the dumb one…” I never said that you called me dumb.
Regarding Ian’s post… I agree that it is hard to really understand what a person intends because of the lack of inflection and tone in a person’s voice. I was not all that hurt by his statement, but wanted to point out that he invites people to comment on his thoughts but doesn’t always want to hear what they have to say. “I feel like you’re telling me I’m too dumb to think on my own” I think that is silly. Unless you are omniscient I cannot assume that any thought I have you have already had, or unless I am not as smart as you are, and my thoughts are 3 steps behind yours. If this is not the case, then it is safe for me to assume that I may have an original thought and I should offer it to you in case you had not already considered it. Sometimes a person doesn’t realize what they think until it is voiced in another way, as you have actually pointed out to me before.
This whole thing is silly. I know that I am not truly offended, (put off at first, but not completely offended) and I really hope that Teel not is either.
And yes Teel, I connect my emotions to everything I see and hear. You have always known that I am a very emotional, sensitive person. You used to be also, maybe sometimes you still are…
Teel’s wannabe bitch posted while I was writing mine. In response, I am sure that most people do tend to do that, and I know that I do. As far as Fight Club, I was totally with these sentiments and chastising my materialistic side through the whole movie… But wait, it was a crazy man that said all of these things. He was a delusional schitzophrenic! While I mostly agree with these sentiments I just can’t completely follow a crazy man. I loved so many of the lines in that movie I had to buy the book so I could memorize some of them, all the while reminding myself that while communism doesn’t work and other ideological pie in the sky philosophies don’t work in practice they sure are nice ideas. I try to live by it as best I can, and I am sure that Teel is in that same boat. Sometimes he just sounds so authoritative in his philosophies that I feel the need to explore the other side of it. It is actually a family trait, to sound so steadfast on an idea that may not truly be law, just a thought.
I ramble too much and probably don’t make sense anyway. Don’t take my advice, I am crazy too…
Teel’s wannabe bitch posted while I was writing mine. In response, I am sure that most people do tend to do that, and I know that I do. As far as Fight Club, I was totally with these sentiments and chastising my materialistic side through the whole movie… But wait, it was a crazy man that said all of these things. He was a delusional schitzophrenic! While I mostly agree with these sentiments I just can’t completely follow a crazy man. I loved so many of the lines in that movie I had to buy the book so I could memorize some of them, all the while reminding myself that while communism doesn’t work and other ideological pie in the sky philosophies don’t work in practice they sure are nice ideas. I try to live by it as best I can, and I am sure that Teel is in that same boat. Sometimes he just sounds so authoritative in his philosophies that I feel the need to explore the other side of it. It is actually a family trait, to sound so steadfast on an idea that may not truly be law, just a thought.
I ramble too much and probably don’t make sense anyway. Don’t take my advice, I am crazy too…
Just to add another steadfast opinon…
I know that at one time Teel was identified as gifted as was his father before him. But that is a test of ability to learn. Not the actual learning or the desire to learn. Not even the ability to see past their own prejudices when formulating thoughts.
What else can explain Teel and his fathers desire to reinvent the wheel? Dang.. wheels are round, work for everyone else… why can’t you just go with it? They don’t need reinventing. A truly smart person could see that.
In an overview I would have to say that a person who had a lower tested IQ, but was able to function generally well in the world they found themselves is shows more smarts than the Mensa candidate who turns even the simplest human interaction into a complicated, overexplained, frustrating experiment.
Oh.. by the way.. any who read with thier emotions and not with their brains (I think that includes everyone here)don’t be offended.. this is just a rant sort of thing on the pain felt by some neandrathals that can’t see that the wheel has been invented and it is a good thing.
Just to add another steadfast opinon…
I know that at one time Teel was identified as gifted as was his father before him. But that is a test of ability to learn. Not the actual learning or the desire to learn. Not even the ability to see past their own prejudices when formulating thoughts.
What else can explain Teel and his fathers desire to reinvent the wheel? Dang.. wheels are round, work for everyone else… why can’t you just go with it? They don’t need reinventing. A truly smart person could see that.
In an overview I would have to say that a person who had a lower tested IQ, but was able to function generally well in the world they found themselves is shows more smarts than the Mensa candidate who turns even the simplest human interaction into a complicated, overexplained, frustrating experiment.
Oh.. by the way.. any who read with thier emotions and not with their brains (I think that includes everyone here)don’t be offended.. this is just a rant sort of thing on the pain felt by some neandrathals that can’t see that the wheel has been invented and it is a good thing.
Intelligence is knowing it is raining.
Wisdom is coming in out of the rain.
BUT… for some, wisdom is staying in the rain because it makes them feel good.
Intelligence is knowing it is raining.
Wisdom is coming in out of the rain.
BUT… for some, wisdom is staying in the rain because it makes them feel good.
iain@darwinscomplex.com says:
I think, and I may be wrong, but I THINK the main difference between me and other people who post in your forums or on FYTH, is that others seem to relate their responses not only to the topic, but on your feelings and opinions on the topics, and then haphazardly try to relate some twisted form of your words to their own lives…
iain@darwinscomplex.com says:
whereas I read the topic, read and ingest what you have said, and then if I have an opinion on the topic I’ll say something. But… I don’t corelate the topic with your opinions on the topic necessarily
teel@modernevil.com says:
good job.
iain@darwinscomplex.com says:
unless the topic is “I’m Teel, and I did this, and I feel this way” in which case I just either don’t feel the need to respond or respond with an attempt at a joke
iain@darwinscomplex.com says:
I feel like posting something similar to these words somewhere later
teel@modernevil.com says:
excellent.
iain@darwinscomplex.com says:
I think, and I may be wrong, but I THINK the main difference between me and other people who post in your forums or on FYTH, is that others seem to relate their responses not only to the topic, but on your feelings and opinions on the topics, and then haphazardly try to relate some twisted form of your words to their own lives…
iain@darwinscomplex.com says:
whereas I read the topic, read and ingest what you have said, and then if I have an opinion on the topic I’ll say something. But… I don’t corelate the topic with your opinions on the topic necessarily
teel@modernevil.com says:
good job.
iain@darwinscomplex.com says:
unless the topic is “I’m Teel, and I did this, and I feel this way” in which case I just either don’t feel the need to respond or respond with an attempt at a joke
iain@darwinscomplex.com says:
I feel like posting something similar to these words somewhere later
teel@modernevil.com says:
excellent.
What it simply boils down to for me is, I come to a forum for three things – to learn new ways of looking at things, to be entertained, and/or to give my own thoughts in an effort to educate or entertain. If that’s not what others want, that’s reasonable, I’m just generally not interested. From my talks with him, and from reading his posts, Teel appears to want similar things to what I want from a forum, at least for his Modern Evil ones. I will say he sometimes seems to forget that’s what he wants, but… well…
Teel, I know you’ve done it in bits and pieces elsewhere in conversations, but could you lay out your thoughts on what you’d like to see in the forums? I mean, a forum is generally a place for free thought and free flowing expression, so people should post what they want to I guss, but if it is just “You’re dumb” “No, you’re dumb” and “You’re omniscient” “No, you’re omniscient” then I’ll just sit on the sidelines and eat popcorn, cos that’s just not what I enjoy in a forum.
What it simply boils down to for me is, I come to a forum for three things – to learn new ways of looking at things, to be entertained, and/or to give my own thoughts in an effort to educate or entertain. If that’s not what others want, that’s reasonable, I’m just generally not interested. From my talks with him, and from reading his posts, Teel appears to want similar things to what I want from a forum, at least for his Modern Evil ones. I will say he sometimes seems to forget that’s what he wants, but… well…
Teel, I know you’ve done it in bits and pieces elsewhere in conversations, but could you lay out your thoughts on what you’d like to see in the forums? I mean, a forum is generally a place for free thought and free flowing expression, so people should post what they want to I guss, but if it is just “You’re dumb” “No, you’re dumb” and “You’re omniscient” “No, you’re omniscient” then I’ll just sit on the sidelines and eat popcorn, cos that’s just not what I enjoy in a forum.
I would first like to remind our readers that this location, despite having many, many forum-like responses, and a continuing conversation, is not a forum. This is my personal blog. A place where I come to write about what is on my mind. A place where I happen to allow people to give feedback.
Forums are over here. I think you have a good grasp on what I generally want for the forums. Intelligent discussion of interesting topics. Obviously, I have no control over what people think they should post in my forums, and realistically, though I try to remain on topic in forums myself, I sometimes make posts that do little to progress the topic at hand. I believe that a certain amount of that is acceptable, as long as it does not hinder other, more worthwhile posts.
I feel like I’m babbling. Iain asked, but I’m not sure I have a good answer. Uhh… do what you want in the forums, people. I haven’t really censored anyone, and I certainly haven’t ever banned anyone, and I don’t plan on it. When I post in the forums, it is not as an administrator trying to rain on your parade. Instead it is as another member of the community.
Unfortunately, as it turns out, often when I have something to say on a subject, people just have no response. I am torn between my desire to be a part of conversations and the fact that my taking part seems to end them.
I would first like to remind our readers that this location, despite having many, many forum-like responses, and a continuing conversation, is not a forum. This is my personal blog. A place where I come to write about what is on my mind. A place where I happen to allow people to give feedback.
Forums are over here. I think you have a good grasp on what I generally want for the forums. Intelligent discussion of interesting topics. Obviously, I have no control over what people think they should post in my forums, and realistically, though I try to remain on topic in forums myself, I sometimes make posts that do little to progress the topic at hand. I believe that a certain amount of that is acceptable, as long as it does not hinder other, more worthwhile posts.
I feel like I’m babbling. Iain asked, but I’m not sure I have a good answer. Uhh… do what you want in the forums, people. I haven’t really censored anyone, and I certainly haven’t ever banned anyone, and I don’t plan on it. When I post in the forums, it is not as an administrator trying to rain on your parade. Instead it is as another member of the community.
Unfortunately, as it turns out, often when I have something to say on a subject, people just have no response. I am torn between my desire to be a part of conversations and the fact that my taking part seems to end them.
Forums.. oh yeah.. I fell asleep waiting for it to load.. gave up and went away.. ok.. so with a high speed modem I am inpatient, but in the last few days I haven’t been able to make myself wait for the pages to load.
Sorry..this thing loads.. so here I am.
Forums.. oh yeah.. I fell asleep waiting for it to load.. gave up and went away.. ok.. so with a high speed modem I am inpatient, but in the last few days I haven’t been able to make myself wait for the pages to load.
Sorry..this thing loads.. so here I am.